Metal music theory[views:14057][posts:125]__________________________________ [Nov 25,2009 1:35pm - ShadowSD ""] Martins said:I don't know. It's really fucking cool to hear a Lydian tune but it's true that if you know the major scale, you know every other mode Yup, exactly. Martins said: It's the application of modes that is not redundant and also not as easy. This is because the concept of applying modes is misguided to begin with. Square peg in a round hole. More than that, it's really a shell game to begin with. When you apply a mode and use it in a song, are you really going to play the notes in succession from the correct note to its octave? No? Is it really going to be a straight ascention every time with no variance? No? And if not, then what actually designates what you're doing as staying in that mode, aside from the fact that it's your intention? Pink elephants have more substance as a plausible concept than modes. |
| _________________________________ [Nov 25,2009 1:38pm - Martins ""] [img] |
| __________________________________ [Nov 25,2009 1:44pm - ShadowSD ""] I rest my case. |
| ___________________________________ [Nov 25,2009 1:49pm - narkybark ""] I like to apply enough distortion that I'm playing all notes simultaneously at all times. |
| ______________________________________ [Nov 25,2009 2:32pm - ThirdKnuckle ""] Angus Young interview, Guitar Player Magazine, 1984 GP: Do you know what you're doing in musical terms? AY: I haven't a clue. GP: You don't work on scales. AY: Nah. That's basically for home use or whatever. If you were teaching music to children and they wished to know it, yeah. I can see it from a teaching point of mind. Some people are very technical minded, and they like to know how everything works to the exact split second. If you're that way, I suppose it's good. But me, I can sit there and play it and I know how to get the sound of what I want. |
| ___________________________________________ [Nov 25,2009 2:52pm - FuckIsMySignature ""] i follow angus's theory |
| __________________________________ [Nov 25,2009 3:00pm - ShadowSD ""] ShadowSD said:The one principle I stress above all when I teach is that music theory is simply "what sounds good and why". Anything beyond that is useless blather that academics repeat to make themselves sound smart, and a waste of fucking time. |
| __________________________________ [Nov 25,2009 3:11pm - ShadowSD ""] I would also add that the song in one's head is the only perfection. Getting it to out come out of the amp is the challenge, and everything: theory, one's hands, the instrument itself - is a potential tool OR barrier towards achieving that end. In otherwords, there's nothing as important as doing what you hear. Everything else is secondary. |
| _______________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 12:25am - ArrowHeadNLI ""] Martins said: but it's true that if you know the major scale, you know every other mode. No. NO. If you know a major scale you know all the CHURCH modes. There's still a whole fuck-ton of others out there. Some even change depending if you're ascending/descending. While I'm here, a few other things: 1) Sabbath didn't invent metal. 2) The idea that knowing theory will alter your ability to write/appreciate good music is like thinking that knowing all the parts in your engine will change the way you drive. Theory is and always will be a means of explanation, NOT discovery. 3) You geeks should invest this much effort into trying to move music forward instead of fighting of such bullshit. 4) When is Ouchdrummer and Aril gonna get me stoned and talk music-geekness with me? |
| _______________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 12:34am - ArrowHeadNLI ""] ShadowSD said: Modes - This is even more controversial to say, as a lot of guitarists are inexplicably wedded to modal thinking, but modes are a fucking scam. There is one key/scale template - that's it. View it as the minor key or the major key or one of seven modes, depending on where you start - it's all one friggin scale; furthermore when we apply a scale on guitar in a song or play in a given key (same thing, really), the order can be mixed, so therefore drawing arbitrary lines around going from A to A and B to B and so on is seriously retarded, let alone the idea of always going from beginning to end when a scale would never be consistently applied in practice in such a uniform and homogenous manner. What's really going on is much more simple. When you do a solo, it matters what you're doing when the chord change hits versus when the chord is ringing out. When the chord is ringing out, the rules are more open; anything in key is fair game. When the chord change hits, however, the rules are more stringent; the note you hit has to work with the underlying chord as well. For instance, If the note in the solo ends up being the fourth or the sixth or the chord, thereby changing its identity, then there can be a ugly clash unless the identity shift was intended. If I'm in the key of Am and you play a G (VII) chord, the B in my solo at the moment of the chord change can be followed by ANYTHING in the key of Am as the chord rings out, and all that matters is that I played a note that worked with the VII chord at the moment of that change; if some jackass in a classroom wants to talk about how what I really did right was playing Locrian over the VII chord, they can waste time spouting off names in Latin chasing themselves in a fucking circle. Don't waste yours. Modes have no actual meaning, and not a single practical application that even justifies their existence. Again, you're talking only about church modes. You're also arguing modality versus tonality, which both exist as separate and useful things. When you take your theory away from guitar and piano and start applying it to full orchestral pieces (which is where the need for theory arose) you'll find these 'rules' to be far more helpful. In your own example of soloing over dominant chord tones (which is more jazz than classical) by chosing to leave the dominant tonality of the piece to play over the chord tones, that is precisely what modes were created to explain in music. Jazz has it's own ways of dealing with these types of situations, but jazz is another thread for you to jabber in altogether. |
| __________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 12:54am - Martins ""] ArrowHeadNLI said: Martins said: but it's true that if you know the major scale, you know every other mode. No. NO. If you know a major scale you know all the CHURCH modes. There's still a whole fuck-ton of others out there. Some even change depending if you're ascending/descending. Yes, church modes. There are modes pertaining to pentatonic, harmonic minor, etc etc. My point was that if you know one position of it, you essentially know all the rest. |
| __________________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 1:08am - largefreakatzero ""] ITT: taking the fun out of writing riffs. |
| __________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 10:08am - t2daeek ""] Martins said:and no. There is so much metal that is nonsensical chromatic bullshit. Otherwise, yes. that's only half true... because debussy was just nonsensical chromatic bullshit until some lonely gomer with no means of making friends decided to call that chromatic bullshit "planing". all music came first, theory came after, with the acception of arnold schoenberg who designed his 12 tone system to destroy tonality (that's fuckin brootal) and wrote the music after. |
| ________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 10:33am - aril ""] I'll just say this and I hope someone knows what I'm talking about. In the end it doesn't matter if you know every scale, mode or any other nonsensical orthodox definition for patterns in music. What it really boils down to is if one can COMPOSE music - which ultimately comes from within. There's a line between great musicians that are virtuosos and can play everything on an instrument, and COMPOSERS. A combination of both a great musician and a great composer is hard to come by. I'm not that great of a guitar player, mostly because I've always focused on composition before what is technically "right" or "wrong" with what I should play next. ShadowSD said it much nicer in a post above; however, I still hold the belief that music comes from the soul of a person, rather than mathematical calculations on a map of scales and modes. One can strive to be an excellent player at the end of the day by practicing skills (which, I'm sure you know doesn't hurt), but it really boils down to composing music. I listen to a lot of prog and love technicality in music, however there are numerous bands that put flashiness over substance. Music is more than scales and modes - music is the audible representation of feelings and emotions. |
| __________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 11:06am - Martins ""] There are only two things wrong with the above statement. Souls don't exist. and aril said:I'm not that great of a guitar player, mostly because I've always focused on composition before what is technically "right" or "wrong" with what I should play next. Technique has nothing to do with theory. Everything else, yes. |
| ________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 11:39am - aril ""] Haha well you know what I'm saying. It separates the artist from the painter. |
| _______________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 12:33pm - goatcatalyst ""] Yawn. |
| ________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 12:54pm - aril ""] Smelly breath, dude. |
| _________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 6:28pm - Darwin ""] Martins said:There are only two things wrong with the above statement. Souls don't exist. Scientific proof to back this claim of yours? |
| _________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 7:14pm - Martins ""] Black metal or grindcore. Same diff. Same soul. |
| ______________________________________ [Nov 26,2009 8:06pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] I don't like black metal, but love grindcore. However, most modern bands people refer to as grind (including my own last project) aren't what I grew up considering as grindcore. I like Napalm Death, Nocturnus, Godflesh, which I always refered to as grindcore. Nowadays, people tell me these band aren't even grind. Most likely my definition is off. |
| ________________________________________ [Nov 27,2009 3:55pm - Blender_Method ""] There's no such thing as theory application in metal music. Metal is all about being chromatic and playing by feel. |
| _______________________________________ [Nov 27,2009 11:20pm - PANT3RA4EVA ""] hell naw mang look at pantera its all beat like we all back in the tribes in africa yo add sum gitars mang and u got metal das it |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 8,2010 6:24pm - DestroyYouAlot ""] Martins said:Black metal or grindcore. Same diff. Same soul. Oh hai, just had to pop in here and LOLOLOLOLOL |
| ________________________________ [Mar 8,2010 7:49pm - Martins ""] I love that one grindcore song with the lyrics about the church burning. |